Re: [jcs-online] The Hive Mind

Errol, ....Serge, others...

Relating to your question about unu.ai, hivemind and your examples and question to Serge of, "How do you define 'think'?", below,   please notice that I define 'think' and 'consciousness' as structural coding (or nested structural coding) which fits for all your microbial communications instances. 

Also, please notice that the structural coding I generally refer to is in the energy-related ~6^n hydrogen-bonded ordered water stacks continually forming at aerobic respiration sites. Also, please notice that these sites, and thus the account I advocate and bring forward are INSIDE  neurons (and other cells), thus differing a bit from the neuron theory model  which Jonathan and many others may advocate.  Also please note the nested organization of: ordered water structures (and energy) within respiration sites within neurons within brain structures within environmental vibrations within hivemind conveyed within protein folding markings in the English language words and sentences resonating here within our various screens, etc..

The thing with this structural coding within the respiration reaction is it is integrated with energy collection and conservation and thus structural codings which associate with energy conservation, and/or associated development of what we call enzymatic structures which replicate DO have or offer some survival or sustenance advantage. And, this structural coding advantage, if you think about it, is also quite a bit like the value we find in the empirical 'proofs' of our so-called objective science.   Things that strongly repeat and also conserve energy generally have value and/or persist and re-occur. 

[As an aside, please notice that  the storyline I am advocating, including the 6^n structural coding in water forming in the respiration reaction and besides also demonstrating multiple states and variable mass density in increments of 1/2 spins, flows from  empirical 'proof' or basis found  in the analog math of magnetic tetrahedron. Learning the analog math IS acquiring physical intuition via the tactile channel on the things listed herein.]

Fovea within peripheral fields as attention within consciousness.

(Re: Even if the "hard problem" is a real problem...)
Hi, Verna,  

Regarding your vision...points...line...racetrack ideas, I believe you may be led astray by the wonders of your intact peripheral vision.

That is,  where you talk about viewing the start point and some half-way point down the track and then tracing a straight line from point A to B,  in my low-vision condition (which I often consider a special gift), I have become aware that without decent peripheral vision, viewing point A does not mean also viewing point B.  Or, viewing the words on the left of a post on screen, does not include also seeing the words at the right end of the same line of text.  And, it seems to me that locating point B with the fovea or one's central vision under the reduced, low vision condition is more of a random walk and NOT a straight line trace. Finally, one finds and focuses on the location of point B, but then, point A has usually disappeared.

It may seem like I am lamenting my loss, but I am really trying to point out that what ~people are running is a ~two-layered system where peripheral fields of vision give an overall background view, and within that is nested the roving fovea which seems to perform the line tracing that you describe. I am saying, the straight line trace only occurs given the concurrent background view.

Interestingly, I think,  these nested and separate vision systems are very much like attention wandering around in the un-sub-conscious terrain, focusing upon various points of interest. The fovea is like a visual attention.

Accounting for consicousness as illusion

[Believe it or not, I started this post before reading the titles  posted on 1/11/2017 [xx] and finished it before reading any of those. (rf)

Another nice thing that the trial theory I advocate (labeled NSD) does is give a fairly vaporous but adequate  and informative account of the often stated impression or belief that consciousness is illusory; all is maya, etc.

That is, by learning reality is NSD and considering 'consciousness' in terms of nested structural coding (within our various energetic and sp^3 molecular components), participants can quickly scribble up a decent, albeit, approximate structurally coded image and understanding which is basically an energy-related and/or energy-value-founded primary internal language upon which rides ALL of our secondary, various protein-folded words and meanings.

Now, why make being able to give an "account of  illusion" a proper validation test for   various trial theories of consciousness? 

For one thing, as I said, it is a popular or prevailing notion or trait associated with consciousness by a very large number of people. For another, the account for it's illusory nature also can account for the persistence of the absence of a coherent understanding and/or model of consciousness. 

For another, of course, it turns out that giving such an account flows rather naturally and easily from focusing in on  nested structural coding in our respiration reaction.  With that view, we can easily see that "the 'brain' is processing materials and energy" as a primary activity, and not "the 'brain' is processing information", as many people and advocates of information-related models try to maintain.

The NSD/NSC view informs us that we have  internal energetic-materials transactions which operate inherently.  On top of this, are our protein-folded words and descriptive expressions, most of which are in service for group communication and ~education from one participant to others. Coordinated groups can accomplish different sets of transactions than individuals can accomplish.  [xx]...

Yet, notice that when we search for the meaning in our verbal meanings, what we discover is protein-folding which has an energetic value which appears to tend toward sustaining the group and individual(s) and so, in a very real way all of the verbal description and meanings evaporate and prove themselves to not be absolute valued -- illusory; Maya.

A quasi-mathematical ~proof or demonstration of this is available in the NSD analog math.  At it's simplest state, consider two rod magnets, one held in each hand. There are two ways of obtaining repulsion based on aligning the different ends.  Our typical way of describing this further is to claim that one magnet end is 'north' and the other end 'south'. We  then develop an entirely fanciful, but VERY helpful  word-full navigational story where we develop a map and understanding of the Earth's 'northern hemisphere' etc., relative to how rod magnets align in the Earth's magnetic field and with the labeling conventions that groups agree to.  Magnet ends which align roughly left-ish of the  'North Star' in the 'northern hemisphere' are said to be the 'north' end or pole of the magnet, making the Earth's pole that the (compass) magnet points toward the 'south' pole of the Earth's magnetic field. And so it goes...

Notice that our word-full description is all based  on a convenient but unfounded  procedural choice --We'll call this end 'north'.  We adopt a convention.  If or when extra-terrestrials land and inform us that everyone else in the galaxy goes by the opposite convention, we may need to adopt a different word-full labeling scheme.

Our word-full descriptions and meanings are a bit illusory.

Best regards,
Ralph Frost

Changing the western scientific paradigm.

With joy you will draw water
from the wells of salvation. Isaiah 12:3

Re: wtf universal computation

Re: [jcs-online] Re: re wtf universal computation

Errol,

FYI, just to refresh your recollection,  in your earlier Dec 19th post you wrote: "[EM]When does free will occur timewise?  It takes a finite amount of time for electro-chemicals to cross the synaptic cleft."

So, your "timewise" inquiry, to me, is you bringing up time first. 

Also, to me, it is you exposing some of  the ingrained, embedded temporal assumption(s) in the dominant scientific paradigm that seem to guide or support your and others'  --Is it rightly called?-- fatalistic thinking, including your rationalizations wrt to free will as a no-show.  Or, perhaps how you see it, more fairly, is in your storyline you think you adequately and accurately define reality and behavior in terms of genetics and environmental experience alone, thus with with no need or room for free will.  And, within that gameboard, Errol, you do do a consistent  job repeating your mantra.

From  my perspective, where reality is nested structured~duality (NSD), and on a more applied level: nested structural coding,  I notice that even Darwin points out that environmental conditions influence genetics, that is, these various structural codings are nested and intertwined.  Yet, in your model, I don't see where  you  acknowledge  even that small the inherent nesting and thus, to me. it looks like your model is not of the reality we inhabit and thus your conclusions about the existence, or not, of free will strike me as hollow and/or motivated by other, less rational or scientific objectives.

As for your questions about influencing or changing one's genetics,  current events in genetic engineering give an affirmative or developing answer. As well,  people can or do influence or change their sons' and daughters' and grand-children's genetics. Legalistically, that's not changing my individual genetics... or is it?

Considering the nesting between environmental conditions and genetic changes,  it does appear that we all can follow an intuition to move out of one valley or climate to others where different foods and resources exist, all of which induce other nested changes.


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