Monday, October 16, 2017

Collapsing the wave function

Sadhu-sanga -

Dear  Kasyap, others,

Regarding stochasticity,  I think there are also alternatives to the models and perspectives that you and others advocate or discuss. 

For instance, I believe that the dominant scientific models we all reference have developed  from the root assumption of  objectivity separate from subjectivity -- in the slang terms that I learned: via the so-called Cartesian subject-object split.  If one wrestles that entanglement to the ground and simplies (hopefully not over-simplifying),  then everything in the objective category is also ~equal to or a member of  the strongly repeatable subjectivity category. That is, things that repeat strongly (consistently...) we have been educated  to call "objective".   ....Discern a pattern once or twice and it is just a "subjective feeling". Repeat the same "subjective feeling pattern" at several accredited, independent international science labs and we have a confirmed  instance of a strongly repeatable subjectivity pattern  ...that we previously have agreed upon and/or been educated  to call an "objective fact" -- and probably if it's a strongly repeating pattern, call it an  "objective classical physics fact".

Within the repeatable subjectivity perspective,  the two-category subjective-objective system collapses into a single category of grades of repeatable subjectivity, or to the spectrum of repeatable subjectivity.  This spectrum includes non-repeating, rarely repeating, stochastically repeating, periodically repeating and strongly repeating, etc., 'feels', 'measures',  'impressions'... phases.   The strongly repeatable variety matches up with what we label as patterns in "classical physics", whereas the stochastically repeatable varieties may populate the "non-classical physics" realm, with some registering in the QM, xQED storylines and regions.   

For those interested, spiritual liberties may be then be seen to associate closer with rarely repeating (and/or more highly nested) situations, but still within the same single repeatable subjectivity spectrum category.  I suppose 'this all' may be more like a different, more nested topological viewpoint, and focusing more directly upon repeatability rather than "stochasticity" or "measures of probabilities" along with or versus, 'always' or 'assumedly never' happening events.

Thursday, September 28, 2017

Collapsing the wave function

 (Would you hubris on that?)

 [rf2]   Also,  if QM is fundamental or a close approximation of partial fundamental, wouldn't we naturally observe quantum effects or quantum-like effects at various enfolded resonance points?  I mean, photovoltaics are macro-physical as are the stacked nested structured~duality  of Higgs-boson detectors.    So, from my perspective, stacks of magnets exhibit the alleged quant effects ~because reality is nested structured~duality  (NSD). If I add extra hubris, I suppose the quantum effects actually turn out to be NSD effects, manifesting at different scales...

Excerpt from post in!topic/Online_Sadhu_Sanga/EpjvabjxXuA   Sep 27, 2017

Tuesday, July 25, 2017

sci.physics.research Mathematics of physical units and dimensional analysis

Mathematics of physical units and dimensional analysis

Interesting clarifications, Jan.

Regarding agreed upon dimensions, typed algebras, decisions and
adoptions of conventions, and standardization in units in terms of of T
(or 1/T), doesn't all of this also expose why or how, people got/get the
idea that '~consciousness' and/or observation is ~necessary/related in
sorting out quantum mechanical ~results? ...That is, the ~mental-related
qualities or aspects are already (sub-consciously) inserted in an
earlier, previously adopted set of conventions and thus are already
'nested' in the activity/experience.

In the storyline I advocate and express, 'reality is nested
structured~duality' which means pick a structure and pick a duality
(that is, had I had a better math education, aka, in your terms: 'typed
algebras'). But, with this more unified (NSD) perspective, what we also
have is nested fields within nested fields, rather than just an
idealized or assumed L^3 (length-cubed) container containing other
collections which somehow, inexplicably pop in and out of
particle-anti-particle existence.

One can sort of conceptualize 1/T vibrational features in a nested
fields within nested fields system, perhaps as sub-divided tetrahedra
within tetrahedra, whereas it seems a bit more difficult to grasp 1/T
everywhere starting with the initial condition of an un-nested L^3,
cubic model.


Best regards,
Ralph Frost

Reality is nested structured~duality.

Sunday, July 9, 2017

Nested Quanta - Acquiring Knowledge -- NSD-style

Nested quanta

Hey, thanks, RLG, for the link on quantum mysticism,  which led me to then skim over the many, many interpretations of quantum mechanics at

Quite a few, different complicated  instances of NSD there... .-)

In the quantum information theories or interpretations section,
the latter contained:

Quantum informational approaches[35] have attracted growing support.[36][5] They subdivide into two kinds[37]
  • Information ontologies, such as J. A. Wheeler's "it from bit". These approaches have been described as a revival of immaterialism[38]
  • Interpretations where quantum mechanics is said to describe an observer's knowledge of the world, rather than the world itself. This approach has some similarity with Bohr's thinking.[39] Collapse (also known as reduction) is often interpreted as an observer acquiring information from a measurement, rather than as an objective event. These approaches have been appraised as similar to instrumentalism. """
I am intrigued by, the """'s knowledge of the world, rather than the world itself....   and .... observer acquiring information from a measurement, rather than as an objective event."""

The latter prompts me to consider what it means to 'acquire information from a measurement'. 

I don't know how knowledge  is considered as 'acquired' within the dominant scientific paradigm, particularly via QM mathematical physicists if they lack a functional model of ~consciousness.

In the NSD storyline, however, I catch a glimpse of a "nested quantum fields or nested quanta" imagery that seems to have recently been extruding itself in through the cracks in my awareness. In the storyline I advocate, 'acquiring information [from a measurement, a sensory/memory measurement/difference, etc.,]' actually ~means building or accumulating a stack of, say, 6^n ordered water clusters, and/or synthesizing proteins, or other organic carbon/nitrogen, etc, artifacts.  Thus, NSD has a different, and I think, more accurate, informative   type of 'collapse'  or 'reduction'. Moreover,  people can acquire and consider the improved perspective, basically, by shifting from the abstract xyz-cubic... to the nested analog tetrahedral frame or reference.

That is, viewing things from the tetrahedral orientation (not just the xyz-cubic-temporal-Hilbert-etc., orientation),   ~knowledge is  nested stacks of sp^3 collections -- nested  quanta.

So, for those readers who can follow along,   in the NSD/tetrahedral imagery, what we have is various nested resonances among the various collections and arrangements of the artifacts formed and re-forming here within the local quantum gravitation, solar fusion flux system.

At a base level, we've got sp^3 hybridized arrangements nested  in photosynthesis and respiration transformations, structurally coding in ~living  molecules, channeling through, say, the carbon, phosphorus, nitrogen, etc., regenerative cycles. 

When cast or modeled in the abstract, ill-fitting ~cubic/Hilbert recipe, we get the cloudy, probabilistic implications and complexities (and fair amounts of confusion) in the interpretations as shown in the link  above ( ). Plus, in that model folks do not yet have an actual  model,  much less a common denominator model for physical artifacts PLUS 'knowledge' and/or 'acquired knowledge'.

However, in the tetrahedral/NSD modeling instance, or framework, regardless of one's abstract mathematical background, we do. Due to  inherent nested symmetry within the  tetrahedral frame of reference  -- the inherent symmetry between our ontology and our description (~epistemology) --  a more unified perspective can  and does emerge. [Echoing discoveries of R. Buckminster Fuller in the 20th century.] Reality is nested structured~duality, and also, the base sp^3 hybridization of the local region IS tetrahedral.  Thus, acquiring knowledge involves nested state change -- complimentary, energy-related nested state change.

And, also thanks, of course, to RLG's contributions. 

So, thanks, RLG  ...and to all others!

Best regards,
Ralph Frost

Changing the scientific paradigm -- the $7 idea..

With joy you will draw water
from the wells of salvation. Isaiah 12:3

Tuesday, June 27, 2017

TAM Detour -- Re: FWD - overview aspect of consciousness


I believe you can forego your  walk-about  into triple aspect monism (TAM)  Land if you can first just consider more of the science facts available to you.

That is, where you write:

"""The basic idea is that there is a neutral monist foundation (composed of Dynamical Energy Patterns = DEP) from which the three aspects of reality emerge: the physical, the informational and the conscious (phenomenal consciousness). Such a a three-folded reality is present in the nervous system, in the physiology, information processing patterns and feelings (the hydro-ionic wave).""",

before you look around for, or muse about  the secondary DEP's based on the conditioned notion of spatiotemporal reality, first focus in on the actual energy processes occurring in, say, astrocytes, neurons and other living cells.

That will quickly bring you face-to-face with the structio-energetic structural codings occurring in the (Kreb's) and aerobic respiration and the electron transport cycles which, IIRC, is typically located internal to each cell  in mitochondria.

Overall, body-wide, since people respire about 160 kg of oxygen per year, this amounts to the generation of about 10^20 water molecules per second plus energy flow, plus  amounts of carbon dioxide and also, varying amounts of some structural precursors. 

So, before you begin talking about supposedly helpful or informative metaphors involving just three of the ancient Greek gods, try, at least, to get to the actual end of relevant, known science.

Once you re-acquaint yourself with the on-going, known  primary energy flow, you should be able, perhaps after a 2 or 3 second lag, to also become aware that variations in this primary energy supply and integrated energy conservation process  also is giving some if not most dominant "dynamic energy patterns" (your DEP's). Thus, rather quickly, you and other readers can note that variations in the surroundings are directly coupled with variations in energy flow plus flow of hydrogen-bonding packets plus precursors, all of which IS variations in nested *feel*.

...All without skipping off into philosophical and metaphorical TAM Land, or, in fact,  applying unnecessary secondary labels such as 'informational' or 'phenomenal consciousness'.

If you squint, hard, at what these two secondary labels relate to, after 2 or 3 seconds, you and others may observe, both strongly relate to 'words' and 'groups of words', typically echoes, relating back to prior structio-energetic *feels*. So, that is,  these two so-called fundamental categories are just nested secondary echoes of the primary structio-energetic *feel* category.   Thus the TAM silk purse IS  invisibly and unnecessarily woven from and about the one wrinkled pig's ear.

FWIW, in the storyline I advocate,  these secondary echoes or structural codings that we call 'words', I believe are or can be fashioned in the 6^n structural coding of dualically structured water molecules forming in respiration (in concert with experience) -- hydrogen-bonding packets -- which reflect and influence protein-folding sequences, which of course, once coordinated, ARE our expression(s).   Thus, reading or writing, say, this paragraph involves some fast-paced but naturally occurring and acquired  structural coding of hydrogen-bonding packets and streams linking with closely related protein-folding -- ALL OF WHICH, historically relates and associates with, for instance,  sustaining or increasing energy flow and rewards.

I surmise or speculate that the reason you may feel the need to  raise the TAM veil, even though these scientific facts are right here in front of  you and everyone else, is your prior adoption and continuing reliance upon the spatiotemporal (particularly the temporal) belief system, plus, you may lack the vocabulary, say, of 'structural coding' or particularly 'nested structural coding' where the 'nested' part  is a fundamental tenet/quality.

Alternatively, invoking TAM may persist for you as a previously helpful, initial habit.

In any event, I encourage you to give our primary (Kreb's)/aerobic respiration and ETS structio-energetics 2-3 seconds of consideration and then let's us know what you think.

Best regards,

Ralph Frost

Changing the scientific paradigm -- the $7 idea..

 With joy you will draw water

from the wells of salvation. Isaiah 12:3

---In, wrote :

Dear RGL, you wrote:

"You again make a good case that the neural correlates of conscious experience are brain waves (hydro-ionic waves which are ultimately waves within the electromagnetic field) and you know that such waves are subject to the hard problem. How can any wave have or enable a feeling? From reading your PDF files you do use words like “may” when hypothesizing a link and that is definitely a credit to you. One question does come up: when you write that these waves `instantiate’ feelings, in what sense do you mean? That is really puzzling, I look forward to any clarifications that you may have."

Alfredo: Many thanks for the reading and for your attention. An answer to your question requires reference to the philosophical theory (Triple-Aspect Monism = TAM) I have developed to account for the model (now called "hydro-ionic", was called the "calcium wave model" in other publications). The basic idea is that there is a neutral monist foundation (composed of Dynamical Energy Patterns = DEP) from which the three aspects of reality emerge: the physical, the informational and the conscious (phenomenal consciousness). Such a a three-folded reality is present in the nervous system, in the physiology, information processing patterns and feelings (the hydro-ionic wave). Feelings include the feedback of the wave on the other aspects, physical (e.g. psychosomatic effects) and informational (regulatory and modulatory effects). The assumption is that each kind of pattern of the hydro-ionic wave corresponds to a kind of feeling. What is a feeling in this framework? It is a temporal pattern of energy variations that corresponds to a possible combination of the DEP. When we feel, we make actual a possible combination of the "building blocks" of reality.

TAM is an ontological theory. Now I am working on the metaphysic of TAM, trying to figure the DEP and how they self-organize to generate the three-folded reality. One possible metaphor is to compare the DEP with the Gods of polytheism. Each God corresponds to one power of Nature. For instance, the Heraclitian flow or the becoming process of reality depends on the action of Chronos, the fundamental time (that induces the other times, as the relational time given by entropy increase and the subjective time of consciousness). This is of course highly speculative and attempts to explain why the hydro-ionic wave is the medium that instantiates feelings. The main argument (already present in my papers since 2010) is that this wave instantiates temporal variations of amplitude (the temporal waveform). In the 2017 paper "The Dynamical Signature..." I argue that such a temporal waveform follows a Fibonacci-like pattern, and here I add that this is the manifestation/instantiation of DEP. In other words, when we feel and the corresponding temporal wave is instantiated in our nervous system, we make a singular combination of DEP actual. This is a (possibly) new concept of phenomenality that is different from the use of the concept in Kant and in Phenomenology (there are some connections with Heidegger's concept about subjectivity being closely related with time). In Kantian terms, it is as if the apriori forms (as space and time) were DEP. I have worked with Chris Nunn comparing this approach with his proposed SoS, which relates phenomenality with temporal existence. In sum, it is an open field for philosophical and scientific interdisciplinary research.

Best Regards,


Sunday, June 25, 2017

Structio-energetic global workspace WAS: overview aspect of consciousness


Thanks for links to recent papers. You and your group do a good job of threading through the many layers to get down to your 'hydro-ionic' flows and also Gerald Pollack's structured water descriptions of exclusion zones serving as boundaries and channels, and protein configurations.  I don't follow all of your perspective(s) but I get the sense that you observe or can measure and do focus on  calcium ion clouds and gradients and properties of astrocytes that differ from those of other types of aerobic cells. And, -- is it that you seek or have found 2-3 second long processes there to persist as or while a so-called 'conscious episode' resonates?  Or is that the elusive goal?

I'm wondering if you can clarify more on that goal or supposition, or point me directly to a page of yours where that is  more clearly laid out? 

Thursday, June 22, 2017

Calf Roping


Thanks.  By 'roped in', are you saying you empathize a bit with the wild-eyed rodeo calves who find themselves in the dirt with  three of their limbs tied together?  I see it more like those situations in math where one section or set of equations and expressions is discovered to fit inside another and there is an overall expansion of unity and generality.  Yes, one may still feel blind-sided initially, but the advantage long-term is a clearer picture and improved expressions and understanding.

More below...

---In, wrote :

Ralph Frost on June 14, 2017 wrote:
> In the instance of NSD that you  construct and  advocate, you
>choose to re-define for your own purpose or overload the terms:
>noumenal and phenomenal, different from Kant's or others' usages.
[S.P.] On hearing that I "construct and advocate some instance of NSD" I have a feeling that I was roped in without being consulted. :-) What I construct and advocate is my epistemological framework plus a set of applied theories I construct within the limits of that framework. This is enough for me to explain or to name what I do.

[rf] Ok, but I have also been saying for a few decades: 'pick a structure and pick one or more dualities and then build out to limits of those choices'.  That is  the underlying general principle and thus, that is how and why the generalization works and holds.  It is just the way things are. You, me, everyone  "construct and advocate some instance of NSD".

[sp..] The involvement of such a phrase as "the instance of NSD" adds nothing to understanding of my results. The "NSD" is definitely not a girl I have been ever married with or had any other relation to. :-)

[rf] On the contrary, the categorization adds quite a bit to people's assessment, understanding and consideration of your results. You have created an instance of nested structured~duality and to the extent that the layers of NSD you construct are extreme or  complex or arbitrary or ill-defined, given the generalization, one can identify  such problematic and/or illogical expressions and conditions.

Also, there is the situation where sub-conscious  inconsistencies in expressions do become more apparent.  (See below.)