Sunday, May 13, 2018

NSD Time and Timelessness

Whit, others...

Trying to clarify on my "experience exists; time does not"  prior clarification (below) summarized as "experience exists; time and all the temporal relations are mental artifacts/categories and  only part of our map (not the territory)",  and me additionally hoping to retain both bath water and baby,   please consider the following further attempt at a (nested) clarification.

My current storyline has it (currently) that, say,  roughly, we can dial back to the ancient Greeks who hold that space and time are just TOO intrinsically intrinsic to be further divided or explained away otherwise. Then we fast-forward along the Western scientific paradigm trial through Descartes' cube/subjective-objective initial trial theory and model of physical reality AND consciousness, up through Newton's refinements and insertion of the trial absolute time,  onward to Einstein's refactoring and merging  into the only relativistic, curvy space-time, where, if you want to do any measurement, roughly, I guess you have to carry with you  your own yardstick and clock.  (So in that way  it gets a little bit "nested".)

Then, that storyline sort of bifurcates and splits, I guess into the quantum electrodynamics (abstract mathematics) explored empirically with various stacks of nested fields within nested fields.  I admit I know nothing about QED and summarize most of that region as "multiple-states".

But, in others' reported accounts of the non-classical (or non-ordinary) regions, some quibbles have also emerged about  "observation influencing outcomes", and in addition and/or parallel to this, the larger cultural and/or scientific paradigm story is sort of dancing around the apparent need to groke an improved scientific paradigm that gives a better account of both the physical and the mental artifacts and features.   Or, as in some quarters where folks consider a two-step process, some are currently involved in  developing a stand alone "Science of Consciousness".

In the one-step trial theory that I am advocating and following, I

Time and timelessness


Some other questions and thoughts...

On Friday, May 11, 2018 at 11:24:46 AM UTC-4, Whit Blauvelt wrote:
    On Fri, May 11, 2018 at 02:19:51AM -0700, Ralph Frost wrote:

    There is so much about how knowledge works that's dependent on temporal relations, that it's hard to conceive how it might work beyond that.

[rf] Are you experiencing time as such an entangled tenet in your mind wrap capacity that you cannot conceive of the temporal relations just as different categories , as in "before, currently, potential or expected but not yet happened"  -- "past, present, future"?  Just mental categories...?

I recently found myself puzzling frantically over how to make a connection in an airport even though I had left home a hour or two late.  Then I realized I was dreaming and that I could let the angst go because it did not, and in fact could not be resolved as in a regular, actual  experience. I was in "dream time" -- "~neuron time". Armed with a memory, i am convinced of the "past".  Able to guess or expect or predict, learn or surmise developing or repeatable events, I am convinced of the "future". And yes, the shadow on the sundial moves and night and day alternate and seasons changes in regular varying patterns.  If I have batteries in the clock, the clock hands and date indicators move with great accuracy so I know when to pay my bills.   But, again, these are part of our conventions and map.

As well, if you have taken or studied some calculus, please reflect on the conditioning of onboarding years worth of dx/dt meditations --  a change in some variable "x"  relative to  a small change in "time, t".   A bird flying east overhead seems to be moving relative to time, but the actual change of it swimming through air occurs due to a lot of fancy, energy-related protein-folding, etc.  So, the "time", the dx/dt, is part of our conceptual map, the comparative summary, as a function a shorthand approximated category.  Time and the temporal relations are in our mental map, but not a fundamental part of the territory.

Friday, May 11, 2018

Common denominator of all ontologies and epistemologies


On Tuesday, May 8, 2018 at 10:48:23 AM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote:

On 7 May 2018, at 21:17, Ralph Frost <> wrote:

You might try to reflect, perhaps, asymptotically,  upon our reality as being nested structured~duality, fitting with Kushal's imagery/analogy with gas/liquid/solid, and observing the continuum as being within that sort of a nested fashion, including the remaining unknowns, where the ontology and epistemology are one.

It is too much imprecise for me, so I can’t reflect on this. I doubt that the ontology and epistemology can be one, except from an epistemological perspective (which I guess is what you mean, but that is either the worst illusion, or a non communicable truth related to enlightenment. I explain this in my paper of East and West, but I don’t find the reference right now(*)).

Re: non-communicable truth, please notice that apparently I did communicate it so it's no longer non-communicable.  Regarding, East and West, my perspective is the two are linked in a structural ~self-reference, just a convention, one being the ~opposite (dual) of the other relative to the Earth spinning on its axis in a particular way relative to "north".

You know, rather than continue to hide behind, "...[that] is too imprecise for me...", you could try to consider or learn, perhaps ask a question or two...

Monday, March 19, 2018

Foundations of Mathematics - How arithmetic and numbers are "quantum-like"


Thanks for the clearer and more detailed summary of your thesis relating/associating p and [p] to concepts developed in other traditions and linguistic communities.  

I am curious whether you can add more detail or clarity on relating ~how you see/saw arithmetic contain 'quantum features', or that you came to "predict quantum logic and quantum computations"  and what you mean by that?  Does it have to do with some propositions being both doubtless and doubtful, etc.? And if so, what words came to you first?  

Also, when you say, """by justifying the quantum from a very old theory of consciousness (Mechanism, or its modern Digital form) """,  what are the traits you reference in "Mechanism"?   Also,  by "very old theory of consciousness", are you referring to the split into "subjective and objective" categories?

Additionally, are you saying that quantum features are implicitly "already"  embedded in arithmetic and numbers, as in, just like the ordering alternations between  addition and subtraction or multiplication and divisions,  or a number potentially having N+1 inner states thus predicting the numerical value of its successor?

It seems to me that  math or STEM education might greatly benefit from such a re-factoring since it might eliminate  the habitual starting out in teaching a seemingly non-quantum, classical 1,2,3,4... math perspective and then, after the die is cast,  trying to introduce the non-classical,  quantum mechanical inner states, artifacts and relations.  

If arithmetic and xyz-Cartesian numbers and math are ~already  quantum mechanical or having the "quantum logic", that would be a handy feature to accommodate and emphasize in the early steps of the K-12 educational process.  

It's rather obvious and easily conveyed in the magnetic or ~bipolar or ~binary tetrahedral analog math that I am marketing, but, other than pointing at the positive and negative numbers, I am not clear on how students  might observe or see arithmetic and numbers as "quantum-like".   Can you clarify?

I'm not doubting you did or can discern these relations, I'm just curious to discover what is entailed or involved in describing it and conveying it in the instance of nested structured~duality   that you are working with.

Best regards, 
Ralph Frost, Ph.D.

Changing the scientific paradigm.

Saturday, March 10, 2018

Duality and "Bipolar Polyhedral Structures

[Bruno Marchal] But how do you relate that with you experience? You have not yet told me what is the duality in the nested structured duality. You need to try to explain this without using the terms “nested”, nor “duality”. You seem not trying to explain. 

[rf] Try this. Think of 'duality' as a pointer to 'quanta' or 'multiple states', and consider that such quantum features are and must be  inserted first in the foundationation of mathematics (even in arithmetic), rather than as a somewhat magical add-on after a classical, non-quantum, introductory prepi-cycle. In my first pass through this terrain back in 1975-1982 -- in the Bad Old Days, back in the Reagan eras,  I was imagining building a tetrahedron using four rod magnets. With my wife's metal-working help I soldered a center connector together and then played around with the five states of the inner magnetic tetrahedron.   Tetra- implies poly- and inner implies outer, so in a couple of moves on the gameboard I was considering the states of all inner and outer "bipolar polyhedral structures" (bps).  So, if you follow, I upgraded the term from 'bipolar' to 'duality'.  Originally, though, I came around to noticing that even forgetting about magnets and just making a structure out of anything, to my way of thinking there would always be a tiny, maybe what mathematicians might call "infinitesimal difference" between one end (half) of a radii or edge. One half could have a few more electrons or photons or quanta on one half than the other,  So the ends are different, similar to what is overtly present with magnets, but now more subtle, tending to the point of practically indistinguishable.

That's the original meaning/origin of "duality" as in "nested structured~duality", to me.  That's why I sometimes qualify it a "difference", and it could be a difference or duality in many different traits of features.

In the last few weeks, I have remembered that I used to think that ALL structures, even the highly idealized ones, are ~actually 'bipolar polyhedral structures' existing or having multiple states.  That is, that there are not the two categories: {regular, bipolar},  but just the one category: {bipolar}.  

Friday, March 9, 2018

Continued thread on the foundations of mathematics

Thanks, Bruno, for trying to understand reality being nested structured~duality.

On Wed, Mar 7, 2018 at 10:24 AM, Bruno Marchal <> wrote:
Hi Ralph,

On 4 Mar 2018, at 10:44, Ralph Frost <> wrote:


I reply here below in attempt to convey to you an understanding of my term "nested structured~duality". 

Scroll down  a ways, below UTOPIA  to [rf Mar 4]...

Wednesday, February 21, 2018

Bio-dark matter as ~sp^3 center connector

Hey, Philip,

Regarding your statement below of 'invisible nested structure', being made of dark matter/bio-dark matter,  I can somewhat relate to your proposal by pointing at what I call the center connector - the brass-wire-tube (or plexiglas) construction that I use to align and ~hold four rod magnets along the radii of a tetrahedron that I use in my magnetic tetrahedral analog math.  Without some such structure  or tensegrity the magnets would just collapse into a tight ground-state, non-3d pile.  With it, the three dimensional (tetrahedral) structure persists.

The analogy of such an aligning structure, I believe, would or could or might  extend ~down to the ~tetrahedral sp^3 hybridized molecular bonding level of organic molecules (see images -- ) wherein,  potentially, in the storyline you propose, collections of bio-dark matter would or could  be serving as like  "center connectors" maintaining the flexible, within limits, mostly tetrahedral arrangements and inverting/reactive structures of the related (bio) atoms/collections.

I mean,  potentially, as 'center connector', might be one way to visualize how ~light and ~dark matters might be ~working together potentially giving life its special properties.    (Also, serving as some poetic account for: "...made in our image...")

I guess this proposed insertion of dark matter at that level might raise questions or issues, too, relating somewhat to quantum mechanics since QM calculations, I believe, presently calculate/predict the tetrahedral - sp^3 hybridized and similar types of adaptive structures also found empirically in, say, crystallography, etc., but supposedly just calculated from (assumed) properties of the "light-matter-only" regular chemistry atoms or their sub-atom particles and forces.

I suppose then, also,  ~dark matter could or might or would have to take on some further types of structural coding roles that we (that is, mathematicians) presently and traditionally  might visualize and think of as being "~purely mathematical structures" and/or related to logic, mathematical logic, etc. well as giving some account for all the many instances of nested structured~duality  found in, and making up, say, philosophies of mathematics, or in all the various philosophies in general, which seem to oscillate or partition  between  mental/mathematical and/or physical  --   invisible  and visible/sensible  realms or fractions.   The same might also give some account of Wigner's 'unreasonable effectiveness' of mathematics.

IF dark matter et. al., is or becomes a happening thing, then it seems it ought to be spread out in various places and niches and would have influences in key  levels of organization and phenomena than just in the astrophysical expansion, or as Paul Werbos says, the noospheric level.

...Probably, as you have been trying to express for a few years...