Subjectivity re-visited

Stanley, Whit, Ram, others,

First, I note Ram's condensation-sublimation is NSD-like -- roughly agreeing with "reality is nested structured~duality",  as does considering matter converting to energy. Thus, Ram's statement might better or also be or reflect:  matter is a condensed form of energy where the "two" states are changes in nested structured~duality.

Second, where you say, "Like there is nothing shocking  about brains producing language and ideas. The challenging part is how do brain produce qualia (subjectivity). ",  I don't think brains alone produce language and ideas, and so thinking that reality works that way sort of screws your chances of understanding subjectivity.

That is, in my storyline, the approximation is vibrations in surroundings influence structural coding in  ordered water and/or other sp^3-hybridized structures (or, if you are a neuron theory advocate, alignments in synapses...),  but within that, in getting to language that first involves influencing sequences of protein-folding CONCURRENT WITH moving gas streams through varying channels  as to get 'sounds'.  Those sounds add to the vibrations of the surroundings and additional internal structural coding (all relating to whether such activities aid or detract from energy and material collection and conservation "within respiration reaction".  Anyway,  during the language learning phase the brain and the surrounding gaseous environment and several other levels of organization are all involved in scribbling up to so-called  'language'.

And, if you think about it,  lots of our 'ideas'  only get structurally coded after or concurrently with the -brain-environment-vibrations resonance process involved with "producing sounds-language".    Idea formation likely takes a couple of repetitions or passes through structural coding in ordered water, and then within protein matrices and then in synaptic alignment habits when selecting out "useful protein-folding sequences" from the less or not useful protein-folding sequences.  The useful items, in terms of propensity of improving/sustaining energy collection-conservation  "become language" which structurally code into "useful ideas".

In this light, then when you then inquire about subjectivity, in a way it is like you are valiantly but mistakenly  "thinking backwards".   The "feel of things", the nested levels of vibrations of the surroundings, including  those we form and structurally code, all in relation to "our" sustaining energy and materials collection and conservation, plus replication, etc.,   the "feel of things" is a central part of, let's say, the formation and reverberation of all 'language and ideas'.

That is, in this approximation, the various structural codings all have relation back to a repeatable values within, mostly, "our aerobic respiration process" within the enfolding environment.

Re-cast in terms of nested structured~duality  and nested structural coding subjectivity acquires  a different feel.

Best regards,
Ralph Frost, PhD

Changing the scientific paradigm.
https://magnetictetrahedra.com


On Thu, Jul 18, 2019 at 6:03 PM Stanley A. KLEIN wrote:
>
> Whit, I think that there are many aspects of consciousness that can indeed be connected to our present science. Like there is nothing shocking  about brains producing language and ideas. The challenging part is how do brain produce qualia (subjectivity).
> Stan
>
> On Thu, Jul 18, 2019 at 1:42 PM Whit Blauvelt wrote:
>>
>> On Thu, Jul 18, 2019 at 01:20:31PM -0700, 'Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal' via Scientific Basis of Consciousness wrote:
>> > It seems that the simple hypothesis of “matter is condensed form of
>> > consciousness” and its inverse “consciousness is a de-condensed form of matter”
>> > can address all the debates on the mindbrain linkage.
>>
>> Ram,
>>
>> How far can we take the metaphor of condensation? At least I assume you're
>> not being literal, or condensed milk would be more conscious than whole
>> milk.
>>
>> When we make ideas real in the world, that's a sort of condensed form of
>> consciousness. Then when we pay more attention to what's in the world, we
>> can acquire more consciousness from it ... so perhaps decondensing. Yet what
>> we pay attention to persists, even so.
>>
>> If you're emphasizing density, along the lines of "matter has density;
>> consciouness does not," then you're saying something like Descartes' claim
>> for "extension." Yet there are many non-dense forms of extended matter.
>>
>> This might be a useful metaphor. I'm just trying to see how to work it.
>>
>> Best,
>> Whit
>>
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