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Tuesday, June 17, 2014

Structuralism

jcs-online:  Was Re: Some possible basic principles of a QM based on Plato and Leibniz

Jo, 

Thanks for adding your helpful perspective and observations.   If you know of a good, simple, online reference summarizing and/referencing the principles and physicists you are referring to,  I'd appreciate hearing about it.  Otherwise, perhaps that would be a productive branch for you, Roger, and others to follow-up with if that's what leads you to think that Leibniz's thinking is the foundational cat's meow of consciousness research rather than someone else other others. 

My perspective, when we drift back to prognostic about the earlier days of the 1600's is that the educational principle which Jon Amos Comenius sought (see header  at  magnetictetrahedra dot com), called out for the then as yet undiscovered, underlying principle of structured~duality.  Descartes' instance: cube/subject-object,  did become popular and set the tone for developments for the initial 350+ year phase of the scientific method.
 
Entering the second phase here in the early 21st century, though,    does call for some structural adjustments, error correction and/or paradigmatic transition.   It's been enough for me during the last 30 years  to merely echo and point out that Descartes' instance is a good enough initial approximation but it generally misses the tetrahedral structure of the natural world.  And that miss is pretty fundamental.  It sounds like, Jo, you are saying that parallel developments in physics to "anomalies", particularly in the internally nested non-classical realms have been or seem to be supported by Leibniz-like attributes or apparent precedences.   Considering the principles of "both and more",  and "one world -- many descriptions", or to look straight into nested fields within nested fields, that would make sense, wouldn't it?
 
I don't think, however, that a simple switch or elevation  from Descartes to Leibniz properly fills the bill.  It might make nice for the kind of retrofitted simplifications  we see in textbooks, but the facts are that Descartes put forth one helpful instance and Leibniz put forth another helpful instance.  Both are important and viewing both within the developing context is rather necessary to flesh out the more robust, more unified view into which we are transitioning.  
 
The misplaced debate, chit-chat and name-calling about physicalists and mentalists, is another case in point in the favor of the emerging underlying structured~duality.    Readers MAY be able to capture the drift here simply by considering these as two categories of structure: a physical structure and a mental structure.  Getting uppity or prejudiced about one form of  nested structure versus another form of nested structure (or particularly, of  various forms of nested structured~duality)  is just downright myopic.  Yes, I suppose all of these comparisons may better be seen as battles of sets of dueling mirror neurons  -- of habituated clumps of nested structured~dualities, but again, the important point is  the underlying foundation is nested structure.   What is the basis for one claiming green-painted nested structure is more fundamental than red-painted structure other than personal predilection? Or claiming physical structure versus mental structure, WHATEVER those two interrelated distinctions may actually mean?   The Leibnizian instance differs from the Cartesian instance, however, both are instances.  It is important and helpful to keep those facts  and other facts and features in focus.  
 
The entire initial phase is provisional.  As significant as Leinbiz is, he is not, and there is not actually an accurate, simplistic one-person dead-poet textbook fix.

Saturday, May 17, 2014

Can you help with a math problem?

Can you help with a math problem?

One of the apparent weaknesses of the paradigm change storyline (see: http:\\frostscientific.com ) that I am advocating is, when I say people need to "begin with tetrahedron", rather than with the XYZ-cube,   that is NOT an easy sell on several counts.  First off, ALL of us are who are able to read these sentences have already been indoctrinated  or educated or initialized into the cube-first orientation.  And there generally is really no going back, completely, for us.  We start with what's given.  So the best WE may be able to do do is perhaps just  ADD tetrahedron to our thinking and nest it somehow  as primary within our engrained cubism.

Secondly,  though,  there is the large matter of calculation and so-called coorelation with rationality.  In our traditional cube-first initializations, we are intensely satisfied  with observing that a stack of 3 blocks wide by 3 blocks long always involves 9 blocks. And if we stack these three layers deep there are  27 blocks which is also  9 plus 9 plus 9, three times nine and also three cubed.  So, the cubic orientation  comes with this rather inherent counting math flowing quite directly from its basic cubic structure.  The patterns are so rational, efficient and useful.  Everybody likes them.

But when when crawl through the opening in the dominant paradigm shield wall and we saunter  over

Wednesday, April 2, 2014

Re: [jcs-online] More Clarifications


---In jcs-online@yahoogroups.com, wrote :

For Ralph,
That was dispositional rather than positional Ralph, so it is dynamic structure - but that suits us both I suspect. Quite interesting that it could be read as positional in fact, in the context of Higgs, as you say.

[ralphfrost wrote:] Yes, dis-positional. I see that, but, then and now, I rather disregard the prefix.     Within the unfolding storyline of higgs within electromagnetic -- nested fields within nested fields -- mass/inertial influences are obviously ~structural -- positional, but as we cast those field influences over into the interactive (higgs) field, and take another look as Heisenberg's uncertainty of position and momentum, we get a slightly clarified view of how come there is the so-called uncertainty.  Thus disposition and position  rest as nested fields within nested fields -- more nested structured~duality.

Best regards,
Ralph Frost

http://frostscientific.com

With joy you will draw water
from the wells of salvation.  Isaiah 12:3
 




On 31 Mar 2014, at 15:40, <ralph@...>
 wrote:

I appreciate your clarification of  mass as positional (like energy).  Positional has nice structured ring to it. 

Wednesday, March 5, 2014

Re: [jcs-online] Prime knots of WHAT?

Dear Chris, 

Nice job on presenting one, or of resurrecting your complicated abstract math echo of nested structural coding.  It doesn't seem naive to me and I hope you can remember it. For abstract math aficionados who presently think backwards and inside-out (from the analog math perspective) such a translation may be of considerable significance, helping to catch some of those  men in the net.

The so-called 1D - 3D characterizations and  numbers of degrees of freedom  and topological constraints (relating to properties), though,  are just a rather old-world way way of thinking about, pointing at and attempting to simplify our actual reality of nested fields within nested fields. Interactions occur within containments -- ~many ~body interactions...  Ditto, old-world (but very, very helpful)  for the various named abstract math features such as Riemann zeta function, braids, knots and eigenstates. 

Prime knots of ‘subjective accompaniments of complex energy eigenstates’ is still a rather lofty and, I think,  disconnected obfuscation of  attraction and repulsion in stacks and sequences of the underlying, and in one view, the 6^n, 10^20 per second internal analog math. Might you be trying to point at knots of 'prime feelings'?  
 
There are knots on many levels. Glibly, these may be seen in  the respirational water layer, bound water-protein matrices, xRNA, genetics and epi-genetics, perhaps in the synaptics and up through protein-folding into the tenuous standing waves in our functional and dysfunctional inter-personal and group dynamics, whether archetypally influenced  or not.
 

Wednesday, February 26, 2014

Re: Languages -- including analog math.

Chris,   [jcs-online]

There are many challenges in  a paradigm transition related to language or expression, many of which, like habits, preferences, prejudices, interpretations and other structural coding,  are also deeply ingrained in participants.   The challenge in the present transition is a bit more complicated in that migrating to the improved trial theory minimally makes a step in revealing  how  mental and physical patterns and artifacts ride along on the same underlying, unifying  general principle.  Getting to that new ground involves learning at least one or two new words -- new language acquisition --  and that  step -- learning a new language -- is  usually pretty difficult for all of us. 

Your representation as 'nested hierarchies' of what I actually emphasize [magnetic tetrahedra, the principle of structured~duality, structural coding, nested fields within nested fields], in the storyline I am advocating  is a somewhat fair, but also  somewhat  misleading characterization.  The hierarchies imagery is somewhat descriptive and may be excellent for linking back toward abstract math expressions of fractals or holograms. But the term falls down just a bit when defining all of reality as nested hierarchies.  Yeah, it sort of works, but not as well, or as independently  as actually crossing the boundary to all of reality being nested structured~duality.    I suspect many readers can catch this nuance since the new term is sufficiently open to contain the expanded terrain whereas 'nested hierarchies' is already  a bit too limited for that task. 
 

Tuesday, February 18, 2014

Higgs within electromagnetic, etc.

Dear Jo,   (jcs-online)

Where you wrote: "For a token mode there are no knowable values distributed in time and space in this sense, because these 'values&#39; are probabilities for getting a value at a place and time and if you get it at one place and time there are no values at other places and times."...

[ralph wrote] Much of this multi-generational confusion    clears up by shifting to viewing reality as (pulsating) nested fields within nested fields.  
I mean, that's part of where the difficulty arises when folks assume or isolate out  the alleged separate  'space' or the 'time' ~fields, or make their measures against that erroneous assumption -- and then run into the dynamical difficulties you outline.   
Viewing the entire showboat as the dynamic (aka, pulsating) nested fields within nested fields, or the dynamic nested structural coding, then  the space and the time are just more of the structural coding -- not hard and fast actual solidified dimensions.  Again, the structured~duality is the underlying tenet, not space and time, or even space-time.
Within such an improved emerging paradigmatic perspective, then one can begin to track on L-monads, monads, fields, mode of a field, ensembles, matter-energy transformations, emergence and the elusive qualities of non-classical dynamics supporting classical physics,  -- Higgs within electromagnetic, etc.
The issue at hand is paradigmatic, requiring a change in underlying tenet(s).   'Mode of a field' is great, but not quite general enough.  The space, time and space-time need to dissipate and dissolve into the underlying nested structured~duality. 


Best regards,
Ralph Frost


http://structuredduality.blogspot.com


With joy you will draw water
from the wells of salvation.  Isaiah 12:3
----

Thursday, February 6, 2014

RE: [jcs-online] Pulsating nested fields within nested fields

Hi ralph

Penrose and Hameroff didn't provide us with
a scientific account of consiousness,
they only gave us the contents of consiousness.

But consciousness= subject + object.

They only gave us the object, not the subject.

Only Plato and Leibniz give us both.

Dr. Roger B Clough NIST (ret.) [1/1/2000]
See my Leibniz site at
http://independent.academia.edu/RogerClough



Hey, Roger Clough, 

I believe there is at least one other perspective on this subjective-objective elephant that you may not yet be  considering.

When we drill down through the tectonic plates  of both the western and the eastern paradigmatic expressions, what we encounter through and through are various instances of the underlying nested structured~duality. The eastern tradition sports the Tao/yin-yang patterns and our western scientific  tradition sports, roughly, the ~cube/subject-object instance, or variations on that theme.   To build a paradigm  ...pick a structure and pick a duality or sets of dualities, then work outward from there.   Plato does it. Leibniz does it.  Hameroff and Penrose do it. You do it. I do it. 

From this more unified vantage point, then when we look squarely at  subjective + objective, what we discover is objective things are instances, mostly, of the strongly repeatable subjectivity, blurring into the stochastic repeatibility.  This repeatability  is one of the most exquisite and uplifting impressions which comes  along with stumbling onto a new objective scientific discovery. The first occurrence of it is a hugely pregnant affair which then is found to repeat, first, within trials of the person discovering the pattern first, and next in the experience of others who discover  or are informed of the ~new scientific discovery.  The pattern repeats. The generality holds and expands.  Yet, in the early going all that each participant has is a strange, odd, usually poorly effable subjective feeling.  In fact, that is always all we get and have, but in the case of the strongly repeating patterns, after a while, we all like, or have been taught within the western tradition to label them as OBJECTIVE experiences.  

As you perhaps may now see, if you did not before,  there is  just the one type of experience --what likely is best thought of as a spectrum of repeatable subjectivity.   Crudely then, along and within this path of divine union, we might consider different categories such as  none (unique,solitary), rarely, stochastically, and strongly  repeating subjective experiences.    Thus,(rarely repeatable) spiritual is, as most  everyone also says, nested within the physical, etc.
 
 
As for your notion that  "Penrose and Hameroff didn't provide us with
a scientific account of consciousness,",  I disagree.   It looks to me like they are doing an admirable job of projecting, articulating and defending a mostly rationally founded trial theory of consciousness, and/or attempting to sketch in boundaries of science containing