Maurice wrote: What is happening in those muscles and nerves is completely hidden from my experience.
[rf] ...Well, your level of unconsciousness/lack of description/abstraction is also paradigm-bound. And, its hidden nature remains only as long as the internal workings of your paradigm deliver sufficient results.
Hey, Maurice,
I think I am taking issue with your: "It is simply that knowledge must begin from a content to be known. Unless there is something to think about we do not gain knowledge at all. Experience supplies this content as disconnected facts and thinking connects them in manifold ways to produce knowledge."
That is, I'm beginning to notice that there is an important difference in ~focus and illumination depending on whether I/we ~think via the dominant fact/knowledge-oriented Neuron model/motif or via what I am referencing as the energy-survival centered NSD/structural coding model -- the model/trial theory that I am advocating.
While each of us digest our last meals, notice that our central, primary issue is all about acquiring sufficient energy (and materials), and, to a far lesser or secondary extent, on acquiring knowledge useful in predicting where food, danger and other correlate of persistence may be found next. The cart does not come completely before the horse. Possibly, rational extroverts might dispute this energy-centered perspective -- but they'd still need energy to do so.
That is, loosely, as you illustrate below, in the conventional way within the neuron model/motif we measure and assess in terms of wordful facts and certain collections of fact_word_webs called 'knowledge'. It's like using a particular currency or high level credits system in one type of economy. We "see" in terms of facts and knowledge, or at least our rational-egoic selves see in accord with that type of model.
When we drill down through those representations, however, or, at least when I do, internal to all of that is our internal analog math ~pre-representations and the natural nested structural coding -- the structural energetics -- which I am pointing at first in the 10^20 water molecules per second forming in our aerobic respiration sites, and more generally, in the more persistent enzymatics and genetics, etc., in all of our related ~tetrahedral-like sp^3 molecular bonded collections.
In this ~NSD economy, the internal 6^n structural coding is ~all about making arrangements so 'we' have sufficient energy and materials to persist into the next moment and thus into all the coming millennia. And these persistence processes occur, in large part, structurally, building upon the influential internal representation which forms naturally within portions of ourselves forming within the respiration reaction.
We breathe to get energy and materials. In the process we form 10^20 water molecules per second (body-wide; people respire 160 kg of oxygen per year). Each molecule is a tetrahedron having two positive and two negative vertices which consequently can orient in one of at least six ways within the enfolding field. A chain of 12 molecules can thus form in one of 6^12 or about 2.2 billion alternatives. Physics says consistent vibrations in surroundings really should select out consistent sets of water molecules forming within respiration sites, thus providing a somewhat consistent internal representation of surroundings. Stacks of water molecules are packets of hydrogen bonding which are influential in protein formation and protein-folding, aka, genetics and expression.
To convey this imagery and impression, yes, I use ' words, facts and knowledge', but the NSD structural coding process and model is also, implicitly, stacks and sequences of protein folding. It is what occurs prior to and in order that there be some 'words representing and conveying facts and knowledge'.
To perhaps orient and triangulate a bit better, consider a third model and three levels of organization:
1. Neuron model -- NCC - fact/knowledge; cellular -synaptic
2, NSD/structural coding -- 6^n structural-energetic molecular stacks
3. OrchOR/microtubules -- macro-molecular into quantum gravitational spacetime geometry
Let's say a person primarily ascribes to the Neuron model which sports the quest for NCC -- neural correlates of consciousness, which rather implicitly support/spawn the appreciation for wordful facts and knowledge seemingly appearing ~magically from what you, I and Chalmers might point at as the 'feelings of experience'.
When we think of such features in terms like 'words, facts and knowledge' as ~primary -- as in the currency of the Neuron/traditional model, we do come around to ponder David Chalmers' question about WHY does, or how is it that consciousness feels like anything? The answer, of course, is 'words, facts and knowledge' are themselves secondary artifacts which are already co-creations of energetic, feeling-founded processes.
The hard problem arises because we cannot describe fire in terms of smoke.
However, when we consider matters in terms structural energetics -- in terms of ordered water, the property of feelings is integrated within the NSD model/experience/expression and thus within our NSD understanding. The representations themselves are arrangements of attractions and repulsions and thus inherently already *feel* like something -- the attractions and repulsions that they ARE.
Curiously, motivated by the neuron model people seek, but come up empty-handed in the quest for the neural correlates of consciousness (NCC) -- for the brain-wave or other correlates of 'words, facts and knowledge'.
The NSD model, however, comes out of the box, itself, as sets of non-neural correlates of consciousness and persistence -- sets of structural-energetics which are relevant to energy and material acquisition and to persistence. The model, the 'thing itself' and all its expressions are fairly direct and obvious correlates of persistence. The challenge, if there is one, is to accept that our 'words, facts, and knowledge' -- the meanings and the great diversities of languages are themselves ~correlates of the innate, inner structurally coded patterns of persistence.
That is, moving down one level in the nested structured~duality from 'words, facts and knowledge' in the neuron model into the internal analog language of the NSD model -- the orientation that is our actual biophysical common denominator -- a juxtaposition , or a one-half spin occurs where we can now recognize the internal structural coding and all it's implicit energetic *feelings* giving rise to multiple instances (correlates) of expressive, nuanced meanings. Observing that the respiration-related inner structural coding is basically packets of hydrogen-bonding, when such inner artifacts unfurl or otherwise have influence, they prompt for and support sequences of protein formation and protein-folding. Some of these influences manifest as 'words representing facts conveying knowledge'. Some manifest as new enzymes that alter persistence. Some manifest as genetic changes which further alter persistence.
Relating to the multiplicity of our words or the slight and varied nuances between many, many related words, if the reader notices, communication can and does proceed just with looks, grunts and utterances, and/or also with slang or academic, high-level vocabularies. Thus it does appear, as is illustrated by, say, the "Feeling Wheel", (http://aca-arizona.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/650_Feelings-Wheel-Color.jpg) that a core impression can have multiple shaded but related, and perhaps uncertainty-related, ambiguous expressions in a large number of synonyms growing around it.
I'm biased, of course, but I don't get as clear an impression assuming that structural coding is primarily in terms of quantum states of microtubules and the other aspects of the OrchOR or similar types of quantum mechanical/quantum gravitational models.
Think about it.
Best regards,
Ralph Frost
http://structuredduality.blogspot.com
With joy you will draw water
from the wells of salvation. Isaiah 12:3
[rf] ...Well, your level of unconsciousness/lack of description/abstraction is also paradigm-bound. And, its hidden nature remains only as long as the internal workings of your paradigm deliver sufficient results.
Hey, Maurice,
I think I am taking issue with your: "It is simply that knowledge must begin from a content to be known. Unless there is something to think about we do not gain knowledge at all. Experience supplies this content as disconnected facts and thinking connects them in manifold ways to produce knowledge."
That is, I'm beginning to notice that there is an important difference in ~focus and illumination depending on whether I/we ~think via the dominant fact/knowledge-oriented Neuron model/motif or via what I am referencing as the energy-survival centered NSD/structural coding model -- the model/trial theory that I am advocating.
While each of us digest our last meals, notice that our central, primary issue is all about acquiring sufficient energy (and materials), and, to a far lesser or secondary extent, on acquiring knowledge useful in predicting where food, danger and other correlate of persistence may be found next. The cart does not come completely before the horse. Possibly, rational extroverts might dispute this energy-centered perspective -- but they'd still need energy to do so.
That is, loosely, as you illustrate below, in the conventional way within the neuron model/motif we measure and assess in terms of wordful facts and certain collections of fact_word_webs called 'knowledge'. It's like using a particular currency or high level credits system in one type of economy. We "see" in terms of facts and knowledge, or at least our rational-egoic selves see in accord with that type of model.
When we drill down through those representations, however, or, at least when I do, internal to all of that is our internal analog math ~pre-representations and the natural nested structural coding -- the structural energetics -- which I am pointing at first in the 10^20 water molecules per second forming in our aerobic respiration sites, and more generally, in the more persistent enzymatics and genetics, etc., in all of our related ~tetrahedral-like sp^3 molecular bonded collections.
In this ~NSD economy, the internal 6^n structural coding is ~all about making arrangements so 'we' have sufficient energy and materials to persist into the next moment and thus into all the coming millennia. And these persistence processes occur, in large part, structurally, building upon the influential internal representation which forms naturally within portions of ourselves forming within the respiration reaction.
We breathe to get energy and materials. In the process we form 10^20 water molecules per second (body-wide; people respire 160 kg of oxygen per year). Each molecule is a tetrahedron having two positive and two negative vertices which consequently can orient in one of at least six ways within the enfolding field. A chain of 12 molecules can thus form in one of 6^12 or about 2.2 billion alternatives. Physics says consistent vibrations in surroundings really should select out consistent sets of water molecules forming within respiration sites, thus providing a somewhat consistent internal representation of surroundings. Stacks of water molecules are packets of hydrogen bonding which are influential in protein formation and protein-folding, aka, genetics and expression.
To convey this imagery and impression, yes, I use ' words, facts and knowledge', but the NSD structural coding process and model is also, implicitly, stacks and sequences of protein folding. It is what occurs prior to and in order that there be some 'words representing and conveying facts and knowledge'.
To perhaps orient and triangulate a bit better, consider a third model and three levels of organization:
1. Neuron model -- NCC - fact/knowledge; cellular -synaptic
2, NSD/structural coding -- 6^n structural-energetic molecular stacks
3. OrchOR/microtubules -- macro-molecular into quantum gravitational spacetime geometry
Let's say a person primarily ascribes to the Neuron model which sports the quest for NCC -- neural correlates of consciousness, which rather implicitly support/spawn the appreciation for wordful facts and knowledge seemingly appearing ~magically from what you, I and Chalmers might point at as the 'feelings of experience'.
When we think of such features in terms like 'words, facts and knowledge' as ~primary -- as in the currency of the Neuron/traditional model, we do come around to ponder David Chalmers' question about WHY does, or how is it that consciousness feels like anything? The answer, of course, is 'words, facts and knowledge' are themselves secondary artifacts which are already co-creations of energetic, feeling-founded processes.
The hard problem arises because we cannot describe fire in terms of smoke.
However, when we consider matters in terms structural energetics -- in terms of ordered water, the property of feelings is integrated within the NSD model/experience/expression and thus within our NSD understanding. The representations themselves are arrangements of attractions and repulsions and thus inherently already *feel* like something -- the attractions and repulsions that they ARE.
Curiously, motivated by the neuron model people seek, but come up empty-handed in the quest for the neural correlates of consciousness (NCC) -- for the brain-wave or other correlates of 'words, facts and knowledge'.
The NSD model, however, comes out of the box, itself, as sets of non-neural correlates of consciousness and persistence -- sets of structural-energetics which are relevant to energy and material acquisition and to persistence. The model, the 'thing itself' and all its expressions are fairly direct and obvious correlates of persistence. The challenge, if there is one, is to accept that our 'words, facts, and knowledge' -- the meanings and the great diversities of languages are themselves ~correlates of the innate, inner structurally coded patterns of persistence.
That is, moving down one level in the nested structured~duality from 'words, facts and knowledge' in the neuron model into the internal analog language of the NSD model -- the orientation that is our actual biophysical common denominator -- a juxtaposition , or a one-half spin occurs where we can now recognize the internal structural coding and all it's implicit energetic *feelings* giving rise to multiple instances (correlates) of expressive, nuanced meanings. Observing that the respiration-related inner structural coding is basically packets of hydrogen-bonding, when such inner artifacts unfurl or otherwise have influence, they prompt for and support sequences of protein formation and protein-folding. Some of these influences manifest as 'words representing facts conveying knowledge'. Some manifest as new enzymes that alter persistence. Some manifest as genetic changes which further alter persistence.
Relating to the multiplicity of our words or the slight and varied nuances between many, many related words, if the reader notices, communication can and does proceed just with looks, grunts and utterances, and/or also with slang or academic, high-level vocabularies. Thus it does appear, as is illustrated by, say, the "Feeling Wheel", (http://aca-arizona.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/650_Feelings-Wheel-Color.jpg) that a core impression can have multiple shaded but related, and perhaps uncertainty-related, ambiguous expressions in a large number of synonyms growing around it.
I'm biased, of course, but I don't get as clear an impression assuming that structural coding is primarily in terms of quantum states of microtubules and the other aspects of the OrchOR or similar types of quantum mechanical/quantum gravitational models.
Think about it.
Best regards,
Ralph Frost
http://structuredduality.blogspot.com
With joy you will draw water
from the wells of salvation. Isaiah 12:3
---In general_theory@yahoogroups.com,
It
is simply that knowledge must begin from a content to be known. Unless
there is something to think about we do not gain knowledge at all.
Experience supplies this content as disconnected facts and thinking
connects them in manifold ways to produce knowledge.
As I sit here typing I experience the letters appearing on the screen. In my mind I'm saying the words and reading them back to myself. I'm not usually conscious of the movements of my fingers though I can turn my attention to them. If I now reflect on this from previously gained knowledge I know there are muscles and nerves effecting the motion of my fingers. What is happening in those muscles and nerves is completely hidden from my experience.
As I sit here typing I experience the letters appearing on the screen. In my mind I'm saying the words and reading them back to myself. I'm not usually conscious of the movements of my fingers though I can turn my attention to them. If I now reflect on this from previously gained knowledge I know there are muscles and nerves effecting the motion of my fingers. What is happening in those muscles and nerves is completely hidden from my experience.
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