Subjectivity re-visited

Stanley, Whit, Ram, others,

First, I note Ram's condensation-sublimation is NSD-like -- roughly agreeing with "reality is nested structured~duality",  as does considering matter converting to energy. Thus, Ram's statement might better or also be or reflect:  matter is a condensed form of energy where the "two" states are changes in nested structured~duality.

Second, where you say, "Like there is nothing shocking  about brains producing language and ideas. The challenging part is how do brain produce qualia (subjectivity). ",  I don't think brains alone produce language and ideas, and so thinking that reality works that way sort of screws your chances of understanding subjectivity.

That is, in my storyline, the approximation is vibrations in surroundings influence structural coding in  ordered water and/or other sp^3-hybridized structures (or, if you are a neuron theory advocate, alignments in synapses...),  but within that, in getting to language that first involves influencing sequences of protein-folding CONCURRENT WITH moving gas streams through varying channels  as to get 'sounds'.  Those sounds add to the vibrations of the surroundings and additional internal structural coding (all relating to whether such activities aid or detract from energy and material collection and conservation "within respiration reaction".  Anyway,  during the language learning phase the brain and the surrounding gaseous environment and several other levels of organization are all involved in scribbling up to so-called  'language'.

Before words?

 (Scientific Basic Of Consciousness Google-Groups - Dec 16, 2018)

John, others, 

In follow-up to the question of how migrating to NSD/magnetic tetrahedra catalyzes acquisition of physical intuition... Kant's Transcendental Idealism seems relevant.

Kant's Transcendental Idealism allegedly says space and time are subjective items ~forming our intuition.  Maybe others can clarify or correct if I misinterpret or add too much of my bias. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transcendental_idealism

...the idea here is, NSD turns out to be a more accurate basis of our intuition and our physical intuition.   Our intuition is not formed of "space and time" but of "nested structured~duality". The magnetic tetrahedral analog math is a close enough approximation of the real thing so as to be able to deliver the improved yield.

Whether ~this ~refutes T.I., or just drills down through and replaces "space and time" with "nested structured~duality"  is not clear to me today and may be irrelevant. Both approximations are necessary and/or helpful.The bigger issue of switching to a more deeply, fundamentally nested  model, I think, overrides most other considerations.  That is, NSD and/or its spectrum of repeatable subjectivity (SORS) soundly disrupts the familiar or popular subjective-objective method of assessing or  of conceptualizing and categorizing, so various items, even on Kant's gameboard, get shifted around.

That is, he is saying (or I am interpreting wildly from skimming the Wikipedia article), that we have one apparently objective model founded on objects moving about within space and time -- which itself is like a flat nesting image: objects within space (and/or time).

But then he fashions together a ladder and climbs up to view "Transcendental Idealism" to notice that that flat objective model is mysteriously nested within  or emerging from our intuition which appears to be formed of subjective "space" and "time".   But (I assume or project) no where does he notice the fundamental, but simplified  nested ~structure that he is also  relying upon. (OR, he's relying on the spiritual nesting and does not consider it necessary or perhaps possible to make it scientifically explicit.)

Anyway, he's sketching out a problematic nesting and inaccurate structure problem compounded  with a related missing spectrum of repeatable subjectivity problem. It's excellent for an initial approximation or one in the succession of approximations, but at some point it reaches its limits and folds away.

Best regards,

ralph

On Sat, Dec 15, 2018 at 5:15 PM Ralph Frost wrote:

Dear John,

In attempt to summarize or clarify further from this morning's post,  if or once a reader can provisionally consider "reality being nested structured~duality",  what is structured turns out to be different instances of structured~duality (as one word) -- one instance for the so-called thing itself and some other instances for  all the various communicable descriptions of the thing itself.

People have the tendency or ability discover, create, stack and/or balance  these instances of nested structured~duality, which, of course, just creates other instances of nested structured~duality.

Structural coding exists; time does not.

Hi, Chris, 
The   model I am advocating currently is that thoughts are structurally coded in ordered water.  You and I are about 60% water and in respiring about 160 kg of oxygen per year so our respiration sites (within neurons, and other cells) are generating 10^20 water molecules per second.  Water's structured~duality (two plus and two minus vertices in a tetrahedral-like shape) could support 6^n or 12^n structural coding forming internal representations of the vibrations of our surroundings.  Such units would also be hydrogen bonding packets that are influential in protein-folding, etc., (expression).  Yes, it may well be speculative, but the model is  visualizable, non-classical and somewhat rational enough, and storing such immediate ('now') stacks of ordered water in bound water layers of newly forming protein matrices provides a way to get more persistent (aka, longer-term) structural coding or memory.  It seems to be a somewhat interesting model and  trial theory.

More below..

On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 11:45 AM 'Chris Nunn' via Scientific Basis of Consciousness <scientific-basis-of-consciousness@googlegroups.com> wrote:
Hi Ralph,
But what are ‘thoughts’ made of? Dynamic ‘codings’ of some sort for sure. And I agree that ordered water is likely to play a part in these, perhaps in the context of ‘hydro-ionic’ waves.

[rf] Perhaps. I think there are quite a few options for various kinds of structural coding. Plus, there are the various levels of un-sub-conscious as well as ~feelings/emotions, sensing, imagination, etc..   I have  happened onto the 6^n or 12^n structural coding as an internal analog 'language' which is an upgrade of the familiar 2^n binary coding. Getting associative coding into such hydrogen-bonding packets going  is just a step  or two away from sequences of protein-foldings sounding a lot like speech and/or the expressions  of useful, organizing sounds and words.

Something, however, is needed to provide continuity for the codings. As I mentioned to John, any purely classical account runs into trouble because its ‘moments’ are infinitesimal and its metric notional. But real things need to exist in a temporal dimension as well as the three spatial dimensions. As a consequence any purely classical account of continuity probably has to follow Julian Barbour in proclaiming the “death of time” and a universe lacking any real time, but only a path through an unimaginably vast array of relative state spaces. It’s another extravagant picture, not unlike a timeless version of the currently popular multiverse.

[rf] My impression for a few years has been:  "experience exists; time does not" -- or that ~time and the entire  many flavors of temporal notions are an artifact of our structural coding. It's difficult to describe and clarify because the notions of time  (and space) are paradigmatic in the dominant model. In  NSD, reality is nested structured~duality  -- nested fields within nested fields --  where, let's say we are structurally coding "thoughts" or "memories" as nested fields within nested fields.  Those so-called 'moments' are dependent upon  _completing_ increments of  structural coding which we might visualize as  building a coded stack of 12 or 18 water molecules, or perhaps packing  a number of those stacks within a newly forming  bound water layer.  You and I would likely still say, "yeah, but those processes take time", and yes, so it appears.  But add some catalyzing enzymes and the times the process takes lessens.  So the 'moments' still centrally depend on "completing the structural coding of a recognizable, recallable ~thought". 

Such bio-molecular structural coding is minimally non-classical and not infinitesimal. Yet, notice that what matters is that energy-collection-related structural coding does get packed, say, into bound water layers such that as the relevant (perhaps even caustive)  vibratory pattern repeats, the ~echo reactivates the stored structural coding to spawn a useful or effective adaptive response or expression.   You and I may consider these repeating events occurring "in time", and certainly the Earth turns daily as it obits the Sun, but the fact still is: experience (structural coding) exists; time does not".

Re: Reality!

Hi, Chris, 

The   model I am advocating currently is that thoughts are structurally coded in ordered water.  You and I are about 60% water and in respiring about 160 kg of oxygen per year so our respiration sites (within neurons, and other cells) are generating 10^20 water molecules per second.  Water's structured~duality (two plus and two minus vertices in a tetrahedral-like shape) could support 6^n or 12^n structural coding forming internal representations of the vibrations of our surroundings.  Such units would also be hydrogen bonding packets that are influential in protein-folding, etc., (expression).  Yes, it may well be speculative, but the model is  visualizable, non-classical and somewhat rational enough, and storing such immediate ('now') stacks of ordered water in bound water layers of newly forming protein matrices provides a way to get more persistent (aka, longer-term) structural coding or memory.  It seems to be a somewhat interesting model and  trial theory.

More below..


On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 11:45 AM 'Chris Nunn' via Scientific Basis of Consciousness wrote:
Hi Ralph,
But what are ‘thoughts’ made of? Dynamic ‘codings’ of some sort for sure. And I agree that ordered water is likely to play a part in these, perhaps in the context of ‘hydro-ionic’ waves.

[rf] Perhaps. I think there are quite a few options for various kinds of structural coding. Plus, there are the various levels of un-sub-conscious as well as ~feelings/emotions, sensing, imagination, etc..   I have  happened onto the 6^n or 12^n structural coding as an internal analog 'language' which is an upgrade of the familiar 2^n binary coding. Getting associative coding into such hydrogen-bonding packets going  is just a step  or two away from sequences of protein-foldings sounding a lot like speech and/or the expressions  of useful, organizing sounds and words.

Something, however, is needed to provide continuity for the codings. As I mentioned to John, any purely classical account runs into trouble because its ‘moments’ are infinitesimal and its metric notional. But real things need to exist in a temporal dimension as well as the three spatial dimensions. As a consequence any purely classical account of continuity probably has to follow Julian Barbour in proclaiming the “death of time” and a universe lacking any real time, but only a path through an unimaginably vast array of relative state spaces. It’s another extravagant picture, not unlike a timeless version of the currently popular multiverse.

[rf] My impression for a few years has been:  "experience exists; time does not" -- or that ~time and the entire  many flavors of temporal notions are an artifact of our structural coding. It's difficult to describe and clarify because the notions of time  (and space) are paradigmatic in the dominant model. In  NSD, reality is nested structured~duality  -- nested fields within nested fields --  where, let's say we are structurally coding "thoughts" or "memories" as nested fields within nested fields.  Those so-called 'moments' are dependent upon  _completing_ increments of  structural coding which we might visualize as  building a coded stack of 12 or 18 water molecules, or perhaps packing  a number of those stacks within a newly forming  bound water layer.  You and I would likely still say, "yeah, but those processes take time", and yes, so it appears.  But add some catalyzing enzymes and the times the process takes lessens.  So the 'moments' still centrally depend on "completing the structural coding of a recognizable, recallable ~thought". 

Such bio-molecular structural coding is minimally non-classical and not infinitesimal. Yet, notice that what matters is that energy-collection-related structural coding does get packed, say, into bound water layers such that as the relevant (perhaps even caustive)  vibratory pattern repeats, the ~echo reactivates the stored structural coding to spawn a useful or effective adaptive response or expression.   You and I may consider these repeating events occurring "in time", and certainly the Earth turns daily as it obits the Sun, but the fact still is: experience (structural coding) exists; time does not".

Something temporally holistic is needed to escape extravagance of this sort, which does imply incremental increase and something memory-like, but it’s not going to be a spatially definable ‘something’.
Best
Chris

[rf] Consider just the on-going mostly resonant structural coding  of nested fields within nested fields as a feature of reality being nested structured~duality.

The Principle of ~

Thanks, Joe,

I do appreciate --What to call it?-- your constant encouragement and support, but certainly  including your naming nested structured~duality  as NSD and saving on some bandwidth over the last couple years.  The next information compression  step on the docket is to compress nested structured~duality down to just  ~,   as in, Alfredo has his instance of ~; you have your aware-ized energy instance of ~; and we all typically have our  own  instance of ~.     Perhaps  the overloading with "approximation" works a bit, too, but it likely will take many more reps to insert it completely.  We all have our approximations, but ALL of those are instances of NSD -- nested structured~duality.: pick a structure and one or more dualities or differences, build outward from there to the limits of your selections.

...Perhaps as the main title of the "book":   The Principle of ~ ,  but with the recursive compression, the book is one sentence long: reality is nested structured~duality, with a bit of analog math to deliver the physical intuition.  So, yeah, not much to write about.

I'll have to work on that or team up with  a verbose ghost writer.

As for the stagnancy and one trick pony-ism, these attributes  come along naturally with items in the  general principle territory. When everything IS a nail, then you do only need a hammer -- or a one-half spin.   NSD is  mind-numbingly, universally recursive and applicable but it contrasts well with the failing, wildly verbose non-nested models.  It turns out, we need both, and more.

As for "There's nothing related to consciousness here. Move along. Move along.",  The NSD begets nested structural coding and that does  or can relegate consciousness to the bin containing phlogiston.   I don't know why you would want to push for that immediately since it seem the current clamor is, "What is consciousness? What is consciousness?".  The short answer is: consciousness is various types of nested structural coding.  So, we arrive at yet another definition or association. The thing with acquiring  NSD is dropping down to this inner general principle shifts the paradigm which also provides cross-paradigm associations, so  a couple of things are happening at once.  Also, even with the information compression there is a huge expansion of clarifying information.

Best regards,
Ralph Frost, PhD

Changing the scientific paradigm.
https://magnetictetrahedra.com

Understanding NSD

Ram,

Thanks.

For you to try to understand nested structured~duality  and  reality as nested structured~duality,  YOU might make progress on that task  by thinking of Alfredo's TAM as a three-layer instance of NSD  and your eDAM framework, perhaps like a yin-becoming-yang-like two-layered instance of NSD. Also, YOU might consider NSD as like a "multi-aspect (layered or structured) monism" -- MAM. Do that in a loose, approximate fashion and not too seriously.

As well, though,  I think you would need to shift over to different scientific paradigmatic tenets than those you presently hold -- particularly adopting  structure, really, structured~duality, as a fundamental tenet, perhaps in place of space-time and/or mass-energy, so that you can acquire and use a common common denominator also for  things like "thoughts" and "paradigms".

As well, I think you might need to relax or relinquish your hold on neuron-theory-only, or neural  or brain references and begin to consider, say, respirational, metabolic, genetic and epigenetic structural coding as additional ACTUAL ways we acquire internal representations of surroundings and, through (inseparable) hydrogen-bonding influences in protein-folding, also form adaptive, expressions.

My read or projection, so to speak, on your use of the word "inseparable" is that it appears to me that you are implicitly or unconsciously carrying on a measurement or testing of different 'parts'  relative to some additional structural or locational reference. Otherwise, perhaps you just extrapolate from wave-particle or yin-yang lores.  I observe a divergence, though, in your account on 1pp  versus 3pp and/or your focus on a hand-wavy relation with a physics-like energy conservation.

That is, in the NSD storyline that I am advocating, the so-called 1pp is actually running, say, its own nested structural coding representational and expression system within the 10^20 water molecules per second structural coding forming in respiration sites within cells (including neurons). And, in this primary or more internal system the structural coding representation and expression is directly coupled with our energy and materials collection and conservation process -- as we find ourselves engaged with it on "our side" of, or in relation to  the photosynthesis-respiration system.   In this system, sustenance is less a matter of alleged overall energy conservation alone but involves both energy AND structure collection and conservation.  If  you focus on your breath I believe you will come to agree.

Our 1pp runs in its own non-neural or sub-neural energy and structure-conservation-related analog language.

Our so-called 3pp, or group, or family-tribal-collective, empathy-relational, or more unified perspective -- the wordful one --  is perhaps running what I would call the secondary neural networking/verbal process.   Considering both together, you or other readers MAY be able to observe how it is that it can fashion together a description/model that observes and can state energy conservation as fundamental but is rather blind to, or wildly, confusingly verbose and nonsensical about  structure conservation.   The answer is the functional structure conservation  is already provided by the primary representational-expressive-pre-cognitive 1pp  structural coding process occurring in respiration.  Everyone experiences it so there is no big reason to be aware of it or be explicit about it. The structured~duality conservation is just assumed.

Again, focus on the breath. If you only see  1pp and 3pp running on the same or similar neural process, mostly likely you will not be able to consider the distinction I am making.

In this manner, then, contrary to what you may see or project  in eDAM, in the NSD storyline "effective information between the two layers" is NOT the same and it is NOT just a matter of viewing the same reality from two perspectives.   Minimally, the 3pp neural system receives its material (structure) and energy flow and is dependent upon the primary 1pp.

You, or other readers, MAY catch more traction on structure conservation if you reflect on enzyme (structural) catalysis or inhibition playing roles in survival or behavior, and how these structures come forward as transcribed structures from memory structurally coded within our genetics or epigenetics.  If you or your tribe have epigenetics helpful during drought or famine you may be thankful for that conserved structural coding.

So, perhaps some of that may help you to begin to understand NSD and reality as nested structured~duality.

If not, ask questions on where you think you are still getting stuck.

NSD Time and Timelessness

Whit, others...

Trying to clarify on my "experience exists; time does not"  prior clarification (below) summarized as "experience exists; time and all the temporal relations are mental artifacts/categories and  only part of our map (not the territory)",  and me additionally hoping to retain both bath water and baby,   please consider the following further attempt at a (nested) clarification.

My current storyline has it (currently) that, say,  roughly, we can dial back to the ancient Greeks who hold that space and time are just TOO intrinsically intrinsic to be further divided or explained away otherwise. Then we fast-forward along the Western scientific paradigm trial through Descartes' cube/subjective-objective initial trial theory and model of physical reality AND consciousness, up through Newton's refinements and insertion of the trial absolute time,  onward to Einstein's refactoring and merging  into the only relativistic, curvy space-time, where, if you want to do any measurement, roughly, I guess you have to carry with you  your own yardstick and clock.  (So in that way  it gets a little bit "nested".)

Then, that storyline sort of bifurcates and splits, I guess into the quantum electrodynamics (abstract mathematics) explored empirically with various stacks of nested fields within nested fields.  I admit I know nothing about QED and summarize most of that region as "multiple-states".

But, in others' reported accounts of the non-classical (or non-ordinary) regions, some quibbles have also emerged about  "observation influencing outcomes", and in addition and/or parallel to this, the larger cultural and/or scientific paradigm story is sort of dancing around the apparent need to groke an improved scientific paradigm that gives a better account of both the physical and the mental artifacts and features.   Or, as in some quarters where folks consider a two-step process, some are currently involved in  developing a stand alone "Science of Consciousness".

In the one-step trial theory that I am advocating and following, I